hi Mamta

Interesting to see you have chicken tikka on the front page as this has been on my list of recipes to post on my blog for a while but I've heard 2 conflicting opinions on marinating the chicken.

The usual way I've read in books, seen on tv is to mix your garam masala in the yogurt and leave your chicken to marinate in that for hours/overnight then proceed with the recipe.

But I also saw explained by an Indian cook on tv saying you should marinade the chicken in the yogurt first without the spices for a few hours...then add the spices after and continue marinating.

Do you have an opinion on the second method.

What I do know about marinating the chicken in yogurt first, with or without spices is that it tenderises the meat. It was show on Heston's Search of Perfection program that chicken marinated in yogurt and chicken without the yogurt shown under an MRI type of scan was different. With the yogurt marinated chicken it was seen how the yogurt had penetrated inside the flesh of the chicken, tenderising it.

I tend to mix all spices in the yoghurt and marinate chicken/meat in that. I hope Lapis sees your mail, she will be better at explaining the scientific reasons behind these things.

IMHO I can't see any reason to start the marination with just the yoghurt, adding the spices later. Surely the longer the meat is marinated the more the spices and especially the garlic and ginger will permeate deeper into the meat and the tenderer it will be?

I've never seen a tikka recipe using a 'two stage' marinade. My usual procedure is to mix up all the marinade ingredients together, massage it into the meat (kitchen gloves a good idea if turmeric is involved!) leave it at room temperature for an hour, pop it in the 'fridge and then take it out an hour before cooking to bring it up to room temperature.

Winton

I agree with Winton.

We tend to have blind faith when celebrity chefs say things. Unfortunately, most of them spout rubbish now and again, trying to fill a second's silence with anything. And they seem to copy one another, hence propagating the myths.

The science is very involved, and I'm not sure marination actually works too well when it comes to absorbing flavours. It may flavour the outside (adsorption) and it may flavour part way into the flesh, but even 24 hours marination doesn't get the flavours very deep, though probably deep enough!

I think the problem with flavours being absorbed and how it works could be down to the way we look at it. If you go down to the science levels of how meat is made, what it can and can't do on a cell level etc the science suggests it won't absorb the flavours as they can't pass through varying cell walls etc.

However I think most of the flavours are "absorbed" more through capillary attraction as the moisture is drawn up between fibres of the meat, in gaps, into fat etc. It might not have actually penetrated into the meat cells/walls/fibres but its certainly there somewhere. if you left a piece of steak in a garlic and lemon marinade then washed the outside off, you would still taste garlic.

Imagine the meat is sheets of plastic packed together, that won't absorb liquid. If you put them in a marinade some of it will suck up between the sheets taking the moisture and taste with it. If you then bit into it you would still taste the marinade even though it hasn't technically "absorbed" it..

Does that make any sense?

Steve

Adsorption does make sense, as Lapis has explained previously. That is why we often stab the meat in various places before putting it in a marinade. This way, it gets into each nook and crony and you taste it with each bite. Not sure if I have mentioned in each of my recipe using a marinade! There are a couple where 2 marinades are used, but only because they have been doing that way in the past.

Lapis & AskC

as far as meat absorbing flavours goes - you need to have a look at Heston's episode of the chicken marinated in yogurt & spices to see how the chicken meat Actually Did absorb it (penetrated) inside quite far into the meat.

The meat marinated in spices only (no yogurt) only had a very small amount of the marinade absorbed into it.

this wasn't guess work...you could see the result from the scanner...very clearly.

It wasn't a celebrity chef stating the second method I mention in the opening post...it was just a chef giving out his recipe on someone else's tv program...

I think having just typed this I've answered my own question.

From the result of the scanner in Heston's episode..

....if the chicken with the spices (no yogurt) only very slightly penetrated the meat BUT the chicken with the yogurt & spices absorbed much more of the marinade it stands to reason the BEST method is the conventional one of marinating with the yogurt & spices combined.

The yogurt aids the absorption of the marinade. I'm guessing the same way a brine works....

Brining works by osmosis, and ends up filling cells with salt, is that a good thing?

Marinating may have many modes. The goal, or one of them, is to flavour the meat. Most natural flavour chemicals are oil soluble, so the mass transfer medium is oil, not water. When using yoghurt (and I use full fat yoghurt)the mobility of the medium is slow, and although capillary action (for water) may play a part, the main route for transport of flavour compounds will be around the cells, rather than through them. [This is the model for absorption of drugs across the dermal barrier (skin)]. The flavours then have to partition between the oil and fat and/or the lipophilic regions of the meat protein.

By accident, I made some skin 'cream' when trying to formulate some plasticine. It's made of food products, is completely tasteless, and contains no water. It has an infinite shelf life. It seems to me this is an excellent medium with which to marinate meat, maybe I'll give it a go!

In these day of 7 week old chickens, is it really necessary to marinate it? I can see desi chickens could benefit, but this is not necessary for supermarket chicken bits, surely, which take 10 minutes to cook.

Lapis - you should really see with your own eyes the result of the scanned meat and the penetration of the yogurt & spices marinade before dismissing whether or not it can happen...

brine (meat) - from my own experience...and I should have made it clear can also mean a short marinade 12hr, 24hr & 48hr like the ones we use...using white wine, garlic, bayleaves.

ermm...not quite sure what your point is in asking whether we need to marinade meat? Isn't the point because we can?

I will try to see it, I think he has done some excellent work, although I must admit, even though I am a scientist, I like my food as its been for centuries. Just because we can find out how it all happens, doen't mean we have to change it (much!)

As for marinating, I was really referring to chicken. But marinating in a water based liquid is not going to do much, it may flavour the outside, but not much else, because the flavours are transported by oil, in which they are much more soluble.

Just because the yoghurt may have penetrated, doesn't follow that the meat has been flavoured. It would take chemical analysis to prove that, and I don't suppose Heston had that done? Wonder why? Maybe just cost.

Hi Azaleia

Not sure you have answered your own original question which was whether to marinate the meat in just yoghurt first or whack it all in together at the beginning. I think we have consensus though that the 'yoghurt first' option is an unnecessary step.

I struggle with the 'science bit' but surely what Heston Blumenthal's experiment shows is that a marinade is far more effective if it contains an acid (lactic acid in the case of yoghurt) to act as a courier to aid absorption? His results are probably more dramatic as he recommends marinating in a vacuum chamber ('the pressure involved in creating the vacuum promotes osmosis.') Sadly the average domestic kitchen is unlikely to have a vacuum chamber, along with water baths and cylinders of liquid nitrogen - but I'm not saying the home cook can't learn from the principles of his experiments.

I marinate because I know it works, as did our ancestors before us and it makes me organised, once I have the meat marinating I know I'm half way there! Marination was originally as much to do with preserving the meat pre-refrigeration as to flavour enhancement. Wine, vinegar, citrus juice will all helped to stop the meat going off. An oil based marinade will stop meat drying out on cooking (try cooking venison without a marinade first.)

There are of course variables: the texture of the meat; size: cubes of meat will marinade far more effectively than say a whole chicken. Mamta's instructions on prodding the meat with a fork will create more channels for the marinade to enter the meat. To marinade the meat at room temperature will be more effective - I maintain that one hour outside is worth four in the 'fridge but then I would probably be told off by the food police.

If you are organised to do an all night marination after that I can't believe any further osmosis occurs but remember to take the meat out of the 'fridge an hour before cooking if only to stop the yoghurt misbehaving on cooking!

Winton

aah Winton I wonder if thats the reason yoghurt works ? "Lactic acid" thats what builds up in your muscles when you get "a stitch" or pains in your muscles when exercising, so it must be naturally at home in muscle ?

Steve

Interesting point Steve.

Looking up 'lactic acid' it appears that due to its low pH it is a registered ant-bacterial agent as the acidic environment it creates is too low for some 'bad' bacteria. (Hence its use in preserving food?)

Prolonged exposure will cause tooth decay - if it penetrate enamel I'm sure it would have no problems with a piece of meat!

It is used for fluid resuscitation after surgery, perhaps explaining its osmotic properties?

Just thinking aloud, but that would all seem to make sense!

Winton

This stuff is fascinating. How little we understand why different ancient techniques were invented, how people then arrived to certain conclusions/techniques! How did they know what acid does to the meat fibres?

Why is that pickling of vegetables, even meats, in vinegar or in oil or both works? How come it does not go bad? When does it go bad and why?

How little of the science of food taught in cookery courses, even the ones meant for the professionals! I find such discussions absolutely riveting :-).

Agree Mamta, the science and history of food is fascinating, so often we do things because we know they work but don't much idea why they work.

Lapis: Is there a basic introduction to food science, a sort of 'Dummies guide to ...?' What I have tried to read is always by scientists about food, rather than by cooks about science, so tends to go over my head! At least I can get to grips with your explanations, thank you.

Winton

hi everyone

isn't it interesting? I love it too Mamta and so wished kids were taught more of a Heston's approach to food in their science lab to get them interested not only in food for those who rather eat chicken nuggets but also to get kids interested in science because it's something tangible to them, something they eat everyday.

Thank you for your suggestions an explanations and I find it all interesting reading people coming from different angles.

Just for note of interest Heston has quite a few of his "In Search of" series on YouTube unfortunately not the Chicken Tikka episode....then you could have seen the penetration of yogurt into chicken tissue under the scanner.

The experiment with Heston showing the yogurt marinade being inside the meat after hours of marinade was not done by him in his test kitchen...it was carried out in one of the universities he uses for some experiments and the scanner was one at the university.

There is certainly something in yogurt to make it go inside the meat as appose to the chicken marinated without yogurt showed poor penetration...

If you go into YouTube look out for Heston showing how to make chocolate mousse just using chocolate & water and invention by Herve This I think.

yes Winton we're on the same page with regards to marinades & pickles & salting etc for the preservation of food before refrigeration and now it's obviously carried out because we love the taste.

I was born in Portugal and being an old Nation of explorers we did nothing but preserve...salt cod being our most beloved...we also introduced Vindaloo to Goa a dish derives from Vinho d'alho or Vinho de Alho translating to a marinade we still use today of Wine & Garlic...a marinade they believe in the past may also have contained vinegar for preservation.

I have found Harold McGee 'Food & Cooking' very useful in methods and ingredients and lots of the explanations are not too scientific for someone like me...I get lost when it gets into too much detail

I have Heston's firs book In Search Of and he goes into some detail about the recipes he's chosen and for example why a particular type of potato is good for roast etc...

I'm waiting for his second book In Search Of as a birthday present tomorrow which has the chicken tikka recipe so can't wait to read the extra detail...