Hi Mamta and all,

I have just discovered this site and have loved making the recipes so far - butter chicken, broccoli bahji and garam masala. I was also moved by the story of how the site came into being. How great to be able to share family and heritage recipes with a wider group of people!

Many thanks for creating such a rich site and such a valuable source of recipes.

I have a question about the Naam Peshawri recipe. It says in the recipe that it is traditional in India to proof the bread with natural yeasts. I bake with sourdough starter and would like to make naan with this as it also contains natural yeast. At higher temperatures are the yeasts on the flour and lactobacillus in the yoghurt enough to leaven the naan dough or is extra 'starter culture' added?

If you could tell me how long the naan is left to rise for, using natural methods, I think I would be able to work out how to use my own starter in the formula. To give a sense of how my sourdough works, doughs made with it can be left for anything from 4 to 24 hours at room temperature in order to rise. 24 hour doughs can also be put in the fridge.

I would welcome any advice on how long peshawri naan is left to ferment using natural methods.T

Many thanks for your consideration of this.

I am submitting as a guest as I could not work out how to register, sadly. However I would register if that is possible.

Best wishes, Daisy

Hello Daisy

Welcome!

You do not need to register, that is only for people who work on the site.

If you are a bread maker, you should have no problem with making naans. You will recognize when the dough has risen enough with no trouble at all, it is the same principle as in any bread. As in bread dough, after the second rising, do not knock it back just before rolling out, otherwise you will have wait another 10 minutes or so for it to recover, before you can roll naans out properly.

Sourdough will make perfect naans. I too make my own bread and I often make naans or Pizzas using the same dough.

These days, I use mostly the easy bread dough method, leaving the dough to mature overnight sometimes, longer in the fridge. Sometimes I use master baker Dan Lepard?s Easiest Bread in the World method, also very tasty. I guess I should write down the ?Easy Naan? recipe one day soon LOL!

Here is a question for you; my sour dough bread has never come out as I would like it to. I have tried all sorts of methods, , including the Mock Sour Dough Bread. I have tried making many different starters, including the packet ones from San Francisco. None are as tasty as the ones you get in San Francisco. If you have a fool-proof method, I would love to learn it.

I am sure you will hear from other bread makers here soon.

Hello Mamta,

Good to hear from you!

Thanks for the advice. I will mix the naan dough and let it ferment overnight then. I am used to that method, as you guessed.

I started making sourdough with the support of the website The Fresh Loaf http://www.thefreshloaf.com

It seems to work in the same way as this site, in that it was started by a family team passionate about food, which has come to be a place for others to access recipes and exchange advice.

I can't pretend sourdough is easy, though. As the starter culture is a jarful of living creatures it has its moods like other creatures! The starter and bread are much more effected by changes in temperature than bread made with commercial yeasts. However the taste is fantastic!

In terms of creating a strong starter, a number of bakers favour Dan Lepard's method. This starter is also likely to chime with Indian and other international cooks and bakers as it uses both yoghurt and raisins to kick start fermentation.

If you have tried a lot of starters maybe you have tried it? However in a home-based test on the website Sourdough.com, it came out as one of the strongest. Blogger Az?lia describes and illustrates it in detail on this post http://www.azeliaskitchen.net/blog/how-to-make-easy-sourdough-starter-dan-lepard/

In terms of flavour, apparently san francisco bacteria are found in starters all over the world, as well as in San Francisco. Sourdough flavours ranges from milky (lactic) to tart (acetic) and depends a lot on how the starter is fed and cared for and how the starter is used in bread. Lots of info. about that on TFL.

In terms of bread baking, Dan Lepard's recipes are good and accessible, like you say. San Francisco baker Chad Robertson's Tartine loaf has also been a good starting point for many bakers as he has developed the published version for home baking. A TFL colleague has posted on this on this thread, with links back to the formula. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19952/tartine-basic-country-loaf-just-pour-all-water-and-stand-back

Thanks again for the advice and the great recipes. Hoping to make the naans alongside butter chicken, which we loved.

Wishing you all happy cooking! Daisy

Thank you for this Daisy, I will give it another try, haven't given up on it yet! I have Dan's book, The Homemade Loaf, and refer to it frequently.

I like my sourdough bread to be a bit sour, which hasn't happened yet, with any of the methods that I have tried. I have printed out Azelias recipes from her blog (she posts here sometimes) to try one of these days. May be it will work out one day. Once I get the right starter, it is going in blocks in my freezer, to be resurrected from time to time!

Thank you for your message, Mamta,

I like tangy sourdough also. I hope this works out for you. Glad to hear you have the Handmade Loaf. It is such a lovely text. Good also to know that Az?lia posts here also.

Naan is dough is resting now, prior to going in the fridge to develop overnight. First time I tried this. We shall see... Would be a great accompaniment to the curry if I can cook it correctly.

Best wishes, Daisy

hi

Mamta and Daisy and other posters on this thread.

Mamta I remember reading your comments about wanting the sourdough sourer than you get, on the beeb forum and at the time i was so new to the sourdough I wasn't so sure what to suggest.

But having made lots of sourdough loaves now and having messed things up a lot which I advice anyone who tries to learn anything...it's when it goes wrong. :)

I think I mention this on the post Daisy links where I post Dan's recipe for the starter that if you leave your starter once you feed it for 2-3 days and then use it for bread it will give you a pronounce sour taste much stronger than when you use it normally (normally anything from 8-24hrs after feeding).

There is one problem with using an old fed starter and that is it won't be very good at rising because it has feed itself on the flour and exhausted it's activity while doing so.

In this case use a touch of dry yeast (I use the fast acting sachets) about 3 grams you don't need anymore but it will give the rise and the old fed sourdough starter will give the flavour and texture.

I have often fed the starter to use but then forgot to make bread and this is what i do sometimes if I can't be bothered to refresh the starter again.

The other thing that makes your sourdough sour is using rye flour, I don't have any recipes for one but the link to the forum Daisy gave you and also the site www.wildyeastblog.com will have some. It's a flour worth experimenting with if you like the sour taste.

I find when I mix wholemeal four into my mixture it makes my sourdough taste sweeter, there's a sweetness to wholemeal...I find all white is good for tasting a more pronounce sourness and more so the rye.

Thank you for all this information Azelia, every bit helps. I have Dan's sourdough starter (with raisins) on day 3 now. It has Rye flour and bread flour. I hope it will turn out well this time.

A couple of questions to anyone who bakes regularly;

1. Using a mix of soda bicarb and cream of tartar gives me an unpleasant 'soda ? taste on my tongue. If you use this mix, how much would you use, say for 400 gm. of flour?

2. If you use baking powder, how much would you use for 400g. flour.

I made it with sundried tomatoes and dry basil. It was very tasty, except for than soda tongue!

3. I am planning to make it with dry fenugreek leaves too, should give it an Indian twist LOL

Mamta

hi Mamta

I have Dan's sourdough starter (with raisins) on day 3 now. It has Rye flour and bread flour. I hope it will turn out well this time.

I'm sure Mamta it will be fine, between day 3-4 you should see little bubbles starting...the fact he uses raisins increases the chances of succeeding.

A couple of questions to anyone who bakes regularly;

1. Using a mix of soda bicarb and cream of tartar gives me an unpleasant 'soda ? taste on my tongue. If you use this mix, how much would you use, say for 400 gm. of flour?

Mamta I've never used bicarb of soda in bread unless I when making soda bread

if I were to make one tomorrow I would follow a Ballymaloe recipe probably because it's a well respected name... I think Rachel Allen uses Ballymaloe recipe if I remember right she is a daughter-in-law of Mrs Ballymaloe.

When using bicarb you have to use an acid to make it react properly...and when I've over used it you get that soapy taste...also I've a problem like this in recipe where there isn't enough acid to balance it.

In cake baking I use it in my yoghurt cake

2. If you use baking powder, how much would you use for 400g. flour.

I'm never used baking powder in breadbaking. In cakes it varies on what else there is in the mixture and whether it's a whisked sponge which tends to require less than a muffin-style mixture.

I made it with sundried tomatoes and dry basil. It was very tasty, except for than soda tongue!

What's the ingredient Mamta on that loaf? can you list just the ingredients as they are no protected by copy-right.

3. I am planning to make it with dry fenugreek leaves too, should give it an Indian twist LOL

That's interesting as I've never used fenugreek leaves or remember coming across them, are they fresh or dried?

Oops, oops, oops! I forgot to say that I was talking about soda bread, I never put raising agents in yeast bread!

I just had a look at the Ballymaloe recipe. I had been using 2 tsps cream of tartar + 1 tsp bicarb of soda for 400 gm. flour (or flour oats mix). Ballymaloe recipe uses 1 level tsp bicarbonate of soda only, no cream of tartar, fpr 450 gm. (1lb) plain flour. I will try with this next time and see how it goes. Thanks.

ahh...that makes sense now! :)

Let us know how you find the recipe Mamta I haven't made it..interesting to know.

Hi Mamta and Azelia,

Sourdough naans worked really well - thank you for the peshawri naan recipe and inspiration! They were great with butter chicken curry.

i was using a lot of rings on the stove top for the curry and rice so used a frying pan for the naan. Would like to try a griddle next as I think I could get them to puff up even more on that. It uses 2 rings so will try cooking the naans again when the stove top is not so full!

After reading the recent posts here, I came across this thread on TFL, which talks clearly about the 'sour' in sourdough. Hope it might be of interest.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1040/lesson-squeeze-more-sour-your-sourdough

With best wishes, Daisy

hi Daisy that's good to know about the sourdough version...I would like to give it a try, could you let me know what adjustments you made?

thanks

azelia

Hi azelia,

Thank you for your message.

I didn't make any major adjustments. I was interested by Mamta's comment that in India naan is often left to ferment naturally.

If I'm converting a recipe to sourdough I normally use 3 times the amount of instant yeast. For the peshawri naan recipe on this site, that was 21g of sourdough instead of 7 of instant. I find this works for my own starter although other bakers may need to adjust this for their starters.

I then left the dough overnight in the fridge, knowing that over this time the yoghurt should also aid fermentation. The next day I took the dough out and let it warm up before baking. How long this takes depends on the temperature of the room, obviously longer in winter and a shorter time in summer. I was finding that in winter any dough needed at least an hour on the bench to warm up or it was still cold in the centre.

The naan formula was great, although I want to try different ways of cooking them to see which is best in a home kitchen. Any tips on cooking them welcome! I will try a griddle next.

With best wishes, Daisy.

My sourdough yesterday came out well, still using Dan's starter. It could have been a bit more sour.

Daisy, Naan dough is kind of sour dough bread, isn't it? However, it won't be popular in India because it will be considered as made from a dough that has 'gone off'. In the heat of India, chapati dough has to be made fresh every meal time. Leftover dough often gets sour quickly, especially in the summer months and it is thrown away, unless some servant want to take it. It is sour, but not quite 'raised' like the bread dough. I love it, but not many others. If I remember correctly, my father also liked 'sour' chapatties, but I could be wrong, he died more than 35 years ago! It is something I hadn't thought about in a long time, but may try, sour dough chapatties!

Thanks Daisy for the help. I'll will give it a go.

Yes I can ignore my sourdough bread in this weather much more without overproving it for sure.

my kitchen is cold unless I have oven on and if I want to be sure the starter will be ready in the morning I have to transfer it to the dinning room...

HI Mamta,

Many thanks for the further information!

I'm really glad the bread came out well from Dan's starter.

Where I come from in Cumbria the farming community used to have friendship starters like the Amish, that they continued but they fed them sugar also, which some sourdough purists frown on!

Many thanks for the further information on sourdough. It is really interesting to know about the freshness and not keeping old dough. This is the same with some 'sourdough' traditions as I understand them. Some bakers make a natural leaven but they will start from scratch regularly. I was just reading Swedish baker Jan Hedh and he refers to this. I bake with fruit yeasts also and they are made up freshly more frequently, often with seasonal produce. Other bakers are so proud that they have a sourdough handed down for generations or use a small piece of the old dough to leaven the new bread!

I suppose what reminded me of sourdough in naan making was the use of yoghurt and longer fermentation instead of the fast and furious mixing of industrial bread. I can see in the heat though that this would take much less time than in my coldish kitchen so that dough could be renewed daily!

I could try building a new leaven for the naan - that could be interesting. I also need to practise the cooking - obviously an important part...

I am sorry to hear that you lost your father young. I sympathise as I lost mine at 19. It's funny how bread making brings back family memories, though. I bake now with the rolling pin and scales I remember my mother using.

Thanks again for this great site! Daisy

I have kept my starter from dan's method in a ceramic pot in the fridge, to use another day after 'feeding' it. My daughter Kavey has been to a bread making course recently where she was given a very old starter for sour dough. She is going to share some of hers with me.

Mamta

Yes, did the course with Tom Herbert from Hobbs Bakery, also presented some TV food programmes about food/ baking.

His family have been in baking for 5 generations and he gave us all some of the sourdough starter that's been continuously in use for 55 years!!!

Hi Mamta, Hi Kavey,

Yes I remember Tom Herbet from Turn Back Time: The High Street. He seemed really gracious and such a good baker. How great to share some of his starter and to have taken a course there!

Best wishes, Daisy_A

He was a fabulous teacher and the two day course was brilliant!