I notice how much emphasis goes on getting the best produce you can afford by all the tv chefs.. buy organic, buy free range, get this particular breed, use this type of carrot etc...

Ignoring all the ethical reasons for free range, organic etc.. shouldn't a good chef/cook be able to make great tasting food out of anything regardless of quality ?

If you are going to spend vast sums of money of the produce its doesn't take much to make a decent meal from it... surely the experts are the ones who can take some less flavour full veg (mass produced for weight rather than taste etc) and some of the cheaper cuts of meat and still make a really good dish from it !

For my way of thinking most home cooks, the mothers and fathers of the World, the ones who day after day turn out fantastic food without the need for hundreds of pounds of produce are the real stars !

Steve

Absolutely correct!

A niece of my husband's stayed with use for a couple of weeks late last year. When she came shopping with me, she insisted that I buy the 'Basics' range of fresh produce, specially if it looked very good. This I did and I can say that they were pretty good, almos all the time, I am converted.

In anycase, I don't buy the most expensive and top of the range things and very rarely get organinc, because I am never sure if Organic is actually organic.

I read that the Brits are buying less organic food since a report (by, I think, the Food Standards Agency) showed that there was no evidence that organic food was any healthier than non-organic food.

It's often claimed that people on modest incomes can't afford to eat well. I've never believed this: we often create lovely dishes at really low cost, whereas one of my brothers spends a fortune buying fish and chips for the whole family from a chip shop.

Phil

I'm lucky living in East London, with a big market nearby selling mostly Indian food ingredients. The fruit and veg is not 'perfect', but I have cooked some of the best food since I moved here. Simple spicing, too.

I believe a good cook knows how to develop flavour, rather than just add flavours. I see that people are marketing 'umami' flavour, in a tube. Why? If you know your cooking, you will know which foods provide umami.

I was once a section manager where we analysed crops for residual pesticides. I have no desire to spend out loads of money on 'organic' food which, IHMO and experience, is no better than well grown ordinary veg. The only things I can tell the difference between are battery produced and free range eggs.

Don't know what 'umami' means, Lapis.

It's good you've still got that market culture: we have it here in France, and it's way better than supermarkets, which I use, but I object to some of their practices.

For instance: why does my local supermarket sell Spanish mussels when they're farmed locally in the lagoons on the coast here? Why do they sell Argentinain onions when we can buy perfectly good locally-grown onions?

Phil, at a guess it will be group policy and sourcing... someone will look at the supply of onions/muscles etc for the whole chain. So they won't look and say get 100kgs from the docks in such and such for the supermarket 2miles down the road and get 100kgs from the fish market near that other supermarket. They will say we have 25 stores each needing 100kg of mussels a week, who can supply us with 2500kgs at a good price and with regularity etc...

Steve

Oh forgot to say. "umami" is another "taste" like "salty", "sweet", "sour", "bitter" ... umami is the savouryness off food, sort of the charred taste of meat, fried edges of onions etc... things like Worcestershire Sauce are supposed to contain elements of it...

Steve

umami really translates to glutamate (and a few other things). This is sourced from foods such as some cheeses, mushrooms, tomatoes, browned meat and veg. In fact, its derived from the breakdown of protein, producing glutamate, the most abundant amino acid in many proteins. It is often disguised in food as 'hydrolysed vegetable protein'. Another reason that I don't but processed food of any kind, and stick to fresh (ish) fruit and veg. and good meat.

Is that why MSG is used so much in certain types of cooking as its filling that big gap in your taste buds?...

Steve

Well, this site is certainly educational! What language does 'umami' come from? Hindi?

Not Hindi.

Its from Japanese ! - http://www.umamiinfo.com/what_exactly_is_umami?/

Steve

Thanks: I'll contact one of my brothers, who speaks, reads and writes Japanese.

Phil

went shopping in the market, and found a new stall selling Moroccan food, olives in many guises, chillies, preserved lemons and harissa paste, so a tagine tonight for tea. The guys on the stall (Algerians) said they may have some ras el hanout next Saturday. Hopefully!!

No need for msg here!

That North African spice mix is great for couscous (it's quite similar to Indian spice mixes), and real chicken stock is essential for couscous, I find.

ras el hanout translates to 'head of the shop' I read. I wonder. Its a mix of more spices than I've heard of, including 'love potions' and poisons(??). I wonder if it really means 'floor of the shop', as in, sweepings? Its a bit like what I have found when I've had to keep my spices in one big bag/box, and then when its time to clean it, find the mix of spilt bits and pieces in the bottom.

Along with all the Indin spices, Ras el hanout is said to contain ash berries, lavender flowers, Grains of Paradise, orris root, Monk's pepper, cubebs, dried rosebud. I have all of these except Monk's pepper, which I think is poisonous.

Aren't several other spices poisonous though?.. cloves, nutmeg, mace etc ?

Steve

I think nutmeg (and presumeably mace) is not pleasant in large quantities (about one to two nutmeg is potent), but I don't know about cloves. The main constituent in cloves is eugenol, a phenol, so it will have some physiological affect. Most chemicals will be toxic at some level. Even sugar!

that then begs the question what actually defines "poisonous" ? As like you say just about anything in too great a quantity is bad for you and could lead to problems ! (how these topics change from one thing to another lol )

Steve

in a scientific sense, there is no dividing line, only a figure derived from tests run on animals, or in very rare occassions, data from deaths of humans.

The figure which defines toxicity is the LD50, that is the lethal dose that kills 50% of test animals, or LC50, which is the lethal dose to kill 50% of fish (usually). The figure is worked out statistically, one doesn't need to run the tests until half the test species dies! LD50 is also related to body weight, so a typical figure might be 50mg/kg body weight. One good reason for being fat!

Then there is acute and chronic toxicity.

Makes me sound as though I know about poisoning!I did study ecotoxicology for my Masters degree, though.

So something would be deemed poisonous at a level where so much is likely to kill about 50% of a test species ? - Under that level would it be labelled toxic and then less than that irritant ?

Steve

no, the figure given is the level which killed 50% of the test animals, or pro rata. Consider everything is toxic, but at different levels, and the weight of the test animal is to be taken into account.

Considering whether a substance is toxic or not is not the issue, it is at what level it is toxic to a certain species, and that level is the one which will kill a test animal half the time it is tested.

In general parlance, saying a substance is poisonous is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. Nearly everything will poison us if taken in enough quantity.

Just been away - but logging on reminds me how educational and interesting some threads can develop such as this one.

From frugal food, through to unami, ras el hanout and currently poisonous foods!

Cloves are from an evergreen, nutmeg and mace from the same plant and even bay leaves from a laurel (as does cinnamon,) some narcotic others poisonous.However you would need to be a goat to actually consume an overdose as too much would render a dish totally unpalatable!!

Winton

so would it be considered unhealthy for one person to consume lets say two teaspoons of garam masala per day? garam masala is quite potent in the sense that it uses many strong flavoured spices so I am just curious as my nephew eats a lot of garam masala mixed into different foods such as canned baked beans.

I wouldn't think there is enough of anything in 2 tsp of Garam Massala !

I will say this though... going back years and years ago when I was a small boy, there was a new "sweet" (toffee / candy ) on the market. It caused a bit of a craze and everyone wanted them. They were a square plastic box with edges similar to lego so the boxes could be made into little boxes/houses/models of cars etc in a rough sort of way.. the boxes contained basic coloured candy sweets. One of my mates was spending most of his pocket money on them and collected something like 25+ boxes over a week or two... He became rather ill and the doctor was called... the doctor examined him etc and asked if he was eating a lot of the same thing !! The way I remember it, he didn't ask if he had been eating a lot of sweets or anything similar, he asked if he had been eating a lot of the same thing. It was then that he admitted eating all these sweets !

Steve

if it is bought gm, then no problem, but I couldn't see anyone eating 2 tsp of potent homemade gm. I really don't see the point of adding gm to anything as just a mixture.

I believe the real use (as in North Indian cooking) is to use it as a way of controlling the ratios, and extracting into hot oil at the beginning of cooking.

The modern fad of sprinkling it on food just before serving is for what reason?

...to give you pot noodle a bit of flavour? lol

A very interesting thread indeed, most educational.

Most foods/drinks can be poisonous if eaten too much of, even water. Garam masala is eaten in very small amounts. If you think about it, only a little is added to a whole dish, which has many portions.

Lapis, most dishes that do not have whole garam masala ingredients (which are added to hot oil in the beginning), have the garam masala powder sprinkled on top at the end, and the lid is closed for the flavours to infuse. This does happen, in my experience. I am not sure about the scientific explanation, perhaps it is the heat from the food, perhaps it is the hot oil floating on the top, but it does work. I find that most traditional ways of doing things, no matter how old they are, can usually be explained scientifically.

I'm also reluctant to use garam masala very much: I prefer different dishes to have different spice mixes. By the way, a professor of mine once told me that 'garam' is historically related to the English word 'warm'.

adding gm at the end of cooking a dish is a modern thing, I have a book, first publish in the 1970's where the author is complaining of the new fad of adding gm at the end of cooking a meal. A bit like the ubiquitous coriander leaf sprinkled on everything. It's as if people don't understand how gm should be used, it is not a universal panacea, to be sprinkled, auto condimenta, like black pepper and/or salt is used today.

Garam means warming, but in a spiritual sense, not a corporal one.

Garam=hot or warm

Masala=Spice mix

Garam masala is a very personal thing. Either whole or ground, it doesn't get used in/on every dish. It isn't even used in the same dish every time you make it. So, if a recipe mentions it but you don't want/like it, leave it out.

interesting stuff! as i said my nephew is eating at least two tsp a day of homemade gm and i don't think he should be eating that much, but i have said this already and it has fallen on deaf ears ...

so, Lapis, how do you suggest people use garam masala if not at the end of cooking? i once watched a guy making a Pakistani dish and he fried garam masala powder at the beginning before adding anything else. i always think it is best to add it midway through the cookin process as this gives it time to infuse into the dish.

mentioning coriander/cilantro, how come this herb has made its way into nearly all cuisines, but namely spicy stuff? everything these days seems to come with lashings of chopped coriander, not that i am against coriander, i am just curious. i am interested in mayan cooking and i do that from time to time, but what amuses me is that even modern day mayan food contains cloves, cinnamon, cumin, cloves, coriander, yet to my knowledge none of these spices are native to Mexico, but I could be wrong.

JK: your nephew has some strange eating habits! Garam Masala in baked beans? Weird! I can't imagine it's doing him any harm, but perhaps he can be weaned onto proper Indian food?

Mamta: you're quite right: if you don't want to add gm, then don't; the only dish I add it to is your lovely Chicken Jalfrezi. And I always make it from whole spices: I never store ground spices.

I agree with Lapis that it's odd to add coriander willy-nilly; it's my favourite herb, but let's not make most of our dishes more or less the same.

gm is a mix of very aromatic, woody spices. They need a lot of extraction to get the full flavour. That is why they need to be heated in oil at the start of a dish. Then the flavour compounds will dissolve in the oil, and most will remain there until the dish has been cooked. If the gm is added at later stages, when water based ingredients are present, the aromatic compounds won't mix into the gravy/sauce, and can be lost readily to the atmosphere. Adding at the end does very little, in my experience.

If it says add gm at the begining of a recipe, then I would add it. If you don't like gm, then try a different recipe.

Gm means just green or brown/black cardamom, cassia, cloves and mace. Maybe black cumin in some dishes. Black pepper to be added separately, as its flavour changes on storage in the ground state. A gm made of just these spices is very potent, and can be used ground and stored as such for up to six months in suitable jars. Bought gm contains mostly cheap spice fillers, such as coriander, and is not a true gm, IMHO.

can you make powdered garam masala without adding black pepper to it? I usually add black cumin, fennel, a bit of coriander and cumin, cloves, star anise, cinnamon, and green cardamom. could i make it without the black pepper corns?

yes, I never add black pepper to anything if it is ground. There are mre than a dozen flavour chemicals in black pepper, and they disappear' at different rates, thus causing the pepper to change flavour.

Try to use just cloves, cassia, mace and cardamom, maybe black cumin for Kashmiri dishes, to make gm. Then you can use hot oil for the extraction. If you add coriander, cumin and fennel, it will more than likely burn.

Garam masala in baked beans very nice, but I would add only a pinch.

It is made with slightly different spice mix in different parts of India. I don?t make a huge amount at a time. As Lapis says, it looses flavour if old. I will try adding it to hot oil at the beginning Lapis, and see if it gives me better flavour. It will be while before I am home though.

JK, you can make it without black pepper, but it won?t be as ?garam?/hot then.

Hi Mamta,

I would only add the gm at the beginning where it says so in the original recipe. The amounts should have been worked out for the method used, another reason for not adding at the end.

If added at the beginning, the flavour chemicals will dissolve in the oil/fat, and most will remain there until the dish has finished cooking, but if added later, when the gm spices have not enough time to disslove in the oil/fat (if a separate phase), then greater losses will occur. Even though the kitchen will smell strongly aromatic, the dish being cooked will not taste that way! and if you eat in the kithen/diner, the dish will taste even blander because the nose will be full of aromatic kitchen atmosphere.

Hope its warmer where you are. ;?)

Yes, it is quite warm during the day, around 15-16C. Nights are still cold. I am in India, visiting my mum :-).

Interesting. When you look at some recipes that use whole garam masala it's fried at the beginning before you add the onions. I might try and cook the powdered garam masala at the beginning with the onions and see if it makes any difference to the dish. I'm cooking a chicken korma tonight so I will let you know if I notice any difference.

I hope you're having a nice time Mrs G.

Andrew

it will only really work if you use home made gm, made from cardamom, cassia, cloves and mace (or nutmeg). Shop bought stuff contains cheap filler spices that will burn!

I always make my own garam masala, Lapis. I use more spices in it that the ones you mentioned, and I never use cassia bark I always use the cinnamon sticks that you buy in the supermarkets. The other half has an issue with me using cassia because apparently it contains some weird blood thinning agent...I just do as i am told LOL. I used to use cassia bark because I believe it's much better in sauces, as cinnamon sticks have a tendency to break apart and can leave small pieces in the dish -- which can be slightly unpleasant for people who don't like whole spices in their food.

Personally I like Mamta's kashmiri garam masala and that is the one I normally use. I'm a big fan of black cumin seeds and that's what drew me to that blend to begin with. What I did when I cooked my korma this evening is I fried the whole spices in the ghee, and then I added the ground garam masala and fried it for a few seconds before I added the onions. It tastes great, but because my korma recipe only uses 1/4 tsp of garam masala I don't think I can taste much difference.

cassia has a substance called coumarin in it. It is related to warfarin, which is used as an anti-clotting agent for people with blood that has a tendency to clot! It does not 'thin' the blood, it reduces the likelihood of platelets agglomerating together. Same reason why some people take aspirin.

Some spice mixes contain all sorts of spices, but if added at the beginning of cooking, these may burn more easily. And I don't see why there are 'extra' spices in gm, these are usually the ones added later, anyway.